Disney accused of profiling black teens

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PapiBear
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A couple of related commentaries:
Whitley: No Super Bowl MVP treatment for these teens at Disney

David Whitley

SPORTS COMMENTARY

June 28, 2007

The sign at Walt Disney World's entrance says: "Where Dreams Come True."

That is false.

I dreamed of getting busted Wednesday, and all I have to show for it is a slightly used Florida State football jersey.

Where did I go wrong?

The day began by reading the front-page story about Disney kicking four FSU football recruits out of the park for loitering last weekend. That seemed odd since the theme-park industry is based on people wandering around.

"We were just hanging out," Avis Commack said.

So were a lot of other people, very few of whom suddenly were surrounded by more than a dozen cops, escorted to a holding area, photographed, searched, fingerprinted and told never to set foot on Disney property again.

What set the Gang of Four apart?

"They just harassed a group of black kids they thought might make trouble," Commack said.

Oh, geez, it's the race card.

The last thing we need is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton cranking up their tired routines outside the Magic Kingdom. But you really are living a fairy tale if you believe this wasn't a case of racial profiling.

That's understandable -- to a point. Disney is cracking down on gangs, and most gangs are made up of minorities. It would be silly to sic surveillance teams on 6-year-olds wearing mouse ears.

Of the 46 people issued trespass warnings the past two weekends, 45 were black or Hispanic. But what if the suspects turn out to be nothing more than a few teenagers having harmless fun?

That's all Commack, Vincent Williams, Nickolas Moody and Nigel Carr were doing at Downtown Disney. They are high-schoolers who've committed early to FSU. They were joined by future teammate Moses McCray, who left before the trouble started.

Only there never was any trouble. The players walked around for a couple of hours. They sat for a while at an outdoor restaurant.

They talked to girls, which is what 17-year-old boys do on a Friday night. They didn't spend any money. That might violate Disney policy, but it's hardly against the law.

They already had decided to call it a night when they were circled by sheriff's deputies. One of the players had been given a movie ticket earlier, and deputies asked them to go to the movie or leave.

"What did we do wrong?" said Commack, one of the nation's top receiving prospects. "Is this really called for?"

Disney said the players were cited for not cooperating with deputies. To which I ask, what would you have done?

You've had an enjoyable evening, minding your own business. Commack said there was a drunken white kid making a fool of himself a few yards away. But a phalanx of cops surrounds you and demands to know what's going on.

Wouldn't you have questioned them back?

If that's uncooperation, the players are clearly guilty. But I'm slightly confused why security got involved in the first place.

If Disney World ran off everybody who behaved like the players, it would turn into Sunken Gardens. Where exactly is the line between hanging out and loitering?

"If I get into details about that, it will affect the effectiveness of our safety plan," spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said.

I don't want to do that, but surely the players must have done something to trigger the Loitering Alarm. I tried my best to find out Wednesday.

I bought an FSU jersey and drove to Downtown Disney. I sat at a table in my No. 11 and did absolutely nothing.

After about an hour, a security guard approached. Surely the jersey would tip him off to trouble.

"Good afternoon," he said with a smile.

More effort obviously was needed. There was a stock car from the Richard Petty Driving Experience parked nearby.

"Please Keep Off The Car," the sign said.

I plopped down on the hood.

Nothing.

I went to the Virgin Megastore and moved the new Kelly Clarkson CD to the discount bin.

Nobody noticed.

I did everything except walk down Main Street USA wearing a sandwich board that read, "I'm Loitering!"

It was all a waste of time, which was not surprising. We all know where the line is.

Middle-aged white guys aren't tied routinely to gang activity, especially on a Wednesday afternoon. Young black guys are, especially on a Friday night.

So I don't blame Disney for scrutinizing its guests. Nobody wants Cirque du Soleil to turn into the O.K. Corral.

But when the guests are just being guests, they shouldn't be treated like criminals.

At least Disney doesn't have to worry about enforcing the lifetime ban. Commack has no intention of ever going back, even if he wins the Super Bowl MVP one day.

He'd rather go someplace where dreams really do come true, and he's not hassled for loitering because he's black.

David Whitley can be reached at [email protected].
Thomas: Disney apology could cool talk about racial profiling

Mike Thomas

COMMENTARY

June 28, 2007

I must confess to the crime of loitering at Downtown Disney.

You can find me at that toy store with the Mr. Potato Head bin, watching my kids slap in eyeballs and ears.

Just hanging out.

Not spending money.

But in my defense I keep my pants pulled up, don't harass other guests and don't curse Disney security, which by now must be desperately looking for white folks to boot out of Downtown Disney.

A crackdown on Downtown Disney loitering seems to target kids of color. That includes Garnet and Gold, given that some Florida State recruits were swept up in the bust.

Mickey is in a real bind here.

Disney sells an escape from reality. That includes removing the mental burden of fearing for your safety.

To deliver this product, Disney needs to maintain control. That is why Walt bought 27,000 acres, to separate his kingdom from our anarchy.

Disney controls access. It controls parking. That deters criminals from prowling around, looking for victims. This is why you rarely read about violent crimes on Disney property, whereas they are not all that rare on other tourism strips.

But now we have this hybrid place called Downtown Disney.

True, it is Disney. But you can drive right in and park your car without paying a dime or driving through a gate. On top of that, you can go in a bar and get drunk.

All this tends to loosen control.

That was the risk Disney took when it delved into nighttime entertainment. And so I'm not entirely sympathetic to its current plight.

The reality is that such venues attract teenagers looking for a cheap place to loiter. Downtown Orlando, Winter Park, International Drive and almost any shopping mall have all had their problems with kids.

If they are white kids in their Calvin Kleins hanging around Winter Park Village, they are treated as a nuisance at most. If they are black and Hispanic kids in their baggy pants hanging around Downtown Disney, they are treated as a threat.

You could argue it's racist.

You could argue statistical probabilities about which group is more likely to commit a crime.

The unfortunate reality is that Central Florida's epidemic of violent crime is centered in low-income, minority neighborhoods.

Another unfortunate reality is that a majority of young, minority males are good kids lumped into a bad stereotype.

I do not doubt that Disney has a problem with wannabe gangstas. Last week a 15-year-old was caught with a loaded pistol. And then there was that alleged armed abduction of a Connecticut couple from the Downtown Disney parking lot.

This threatens the perception of Disney control. It tarnishes the image that once you drive on the premises, you are wrapped tightly in Mickey's security blanket.

That image is why a shooting in downtown Orlando might not even be reported, whereas a shooting on Disney property would be national news.

Disney is not a racist company.

It targets Hispanics and blacks in its marketing. Last year it booted far more white kids than minorities.

If you want to understand Disney's motivation, think dollars, not color. It has a lot more to lose when violence breaks out at one of its venues.

Disney has to deal with the growing number of teenagers settling in at Downtown Disney. The problem with any crackdown of this magnitude is that mistakes are made.

To keep the crackdown credible, Disney needs to admit when that's the case, as it appears to be with these FSU recruits, and apologize.

Mike Thomas can be reached at 407-420-5525 or [email protected]. His blog is OrlandoSentinel.com/mikethomas.
Just gotta say that I disagree with Thomas' assertion that Disney isn't a racist company simply because it targets Blacks and Hispanics in their advertising. That's a very weak argument.
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Post by PapiBear »

castleinthesky wrote:
PapiBear wrote:Maybe not in your state, but in plenty of others, they do.

Plus, as far as Black ethnicity, most of the time you can tell just by looking at someone. As far as Hispanic ethnicity, all that's usually needed is a Spanish surname.
The US census itself states that Hispanic is not a race, and on the 2000 census, you were able to choose hispanic, and also choose your race (i.e. White, Black, Eastern Asian, American Indian, Pacific Islander).
Well there you go.
castleinthesky wrote:A Spanish Surname is not good at identifiying Hispanicism. Many people from South, Central America, Mexico, and the Carribbean, from Spanish Language Nations (as well as Equitorial Guinea) have French, German, Italian, Welsh, Lebanese, and Portuguese surnames. Myself I have an Irish surname, because my ancestry is both Spanish and Irish.
Good point, but in general terms, a Spanish surname is usually an indicator of Hispanic ethnicity, at least in part.
castleinthesky wrote:And also language is not always shared. Myself I cannot fully speak spanish, and many others cannot either speak Spanish at all, especially if their spanish ancestors arrived in the 1800s or before and then assimilated into the english language.
I didn't mean to imply that everyone who's Hispanic necessarily speaks the same language. I was referring to cultural ties via linguistic ties, in the loosest sense. An individual might not speak Spanish now, but if one of their ancestors did, and if one of their ancestors had a Spanish surname, the likelihood of Hispanic ethnicity is higher than not. Understand that I'm speaking in general terms that won't apply in all cases.
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Post by castleinthesky »

I didn't fully understand you PapiBear, you didn't fully understand me. After working it out, we understand eachother on this topic. Thanks! :)
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Post by Kram Nebuer »

PapiBear wrote:Just gotta say that I disagree with Thomas' assertion that Disney isn't a racist company simply because it targets Blacks and Hispanics in their advertising. That's a very weak argument.
Yeah, I know. He just states it and doesn't give proof. I mean, how do we tell that Disney marketing targets minorities? Are there hidden messages in Disney commercials only minorities understand? :?

Also, Thomas said Disney wasn't racist, but was basically saying that Disney targets minorities to prevent violence in their parks, crediting it as a business strategy and a means of keeping the safe atmosphere associated with Disney. Isn't he contradicting himself? I mean isn't it racist to target minorities because they are believed to be more violent?

PapiBear, thanks for posting those other articles and that video. There was a lot not mentioned in the first article that you posted that didn't give the whole story. It is sad to see the contradicting stories when comparing the first hand account of one of the teens to the story of the incidenct reported in the first article you posted.

I'm getting so confused with all these different sides of the story that it's hard to find the truth.

I just hope that Disney doesn't start charging people to get into Downtown Disney after all this.
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Post by Princess Stitch »

Kram Nebuer wrote:I just hope that Disney doesn't start charging people to get into Downtown Disney after all this.
Charging people, probably not, but I forsee security scans and bagchecks in the near future. Just like what they have at the parks. They could also solve this problem by just having more security walking around.
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Post by reyquila »

Charging for access is a very good idea. That may clean the area from undesirable people!!! Let me say that in my last month trip to WDW I did not feel safe in the Orlando area. I felt aprehension there!!!

PS. BTW, I could not agree more with that Mike Thomas.
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Post by PapiBear »

Kram Nebuer wrote:
PapiBear wrote:Just gotta say that I disagree with Thomas' assertion that Disney isn't a racist company simply because it targets Blacks and Hispanics in their advertising. That's a very weak argument.
Yeah, I know. He just states it and doesn't give proof. I mean, how do we tell that Disney marketing targets minorities? Are there hidden messages in Disney commercials only minorities understand? :?
:lol: No, he's just referring to the fact that Disney advertises in Black and Hispanic media (magazines, TV channels, etc.) Sure, they do, and so do a lot of other corporations, but that fact by itself is hardly "proof" of Disney not being racist. Remember, Strom Thurmond fathered a biracial daughter.
Kram Nebuer wrote:Also, Thomas said Disney wasn't racist, but was basically saying that Disney targets minorities to prevent violence in their parks, crediting it as a business strategy and a means of keeping the safe atmosphere associated with Disney. Isn't he contradicting himself? I mean isn't it racist to target minorities because they are believed to be more violent?
Yup. So you see that just issuing a denial of racism or of racist intent or whatever has nothing to do with actions, which speak louder than words. If Disney, as a company, thinks and acts in a racist manner, they can deny they're racist until the cows come home, but that won't mean anything.
Kram Nebuer wrote:PapiBear, thanks for posting those other articles and that video. There was a lot not mentioned in the first article that you posted that didn't give the whole story. It is sad to see the contradicting stories when comparing the first hand account of one of the teens to the story of the incidenct reported in the first article you posted.
You're welcome! See, this is why I post stuff like this - not, as some believe, to just aggravate everyone and start fights, but to get people to either think about things they might not have before, or think about things in a different way, or hear from a different perspective, but also, especially when it relates to Disney directly, in the hope that it can enact some change and make Disney a better company overall. I mean, I love the parks, but if Disney security is going to be acting like jackbooted thugs and treating ordinary kids like career criminals, then it needs to be discussed, so it doesn't get out of hand. Don't get me wrong - if these kids had been causing real trouble, they'd have deserved the punishment. But I believe in the punishment fitting the crime, and that wasn't the case here. I mean, please, a lifetime ban because some $10 an hour security guard arbitrarily decided that some kids on a Friday night were "loitering" in a major youth entertainment center? They were waiting for a movie to start, they had tickets, the movie wasn't starting for some time - what are they gonna do? They weren't hurting anyone or harassing anyone. I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the "cop says jump you say how high" mentality. Security guards and police are there for the safety of all, not to bark orders at people they choose randomly. There's a mindset in law enforcement and related industries like security about how "civilians" should act, meaning that they should always acquiesce and obey without question, and whenever anyone challenges that in the slightest, they start getting all upset and decide to throw their weight around. It's just arrogance.
Kram Nebuer wrote:I'm getting so confused with all these different sides of the story that it's hard to find the truth.

I just hope that Disney doesn't start charging people to get into Downtown Disney after all this.
From what I've read, it seems they did just that previous to a couple years ago. Supposedly after they made admission free, that's when their security problems increased. Which also adds a classist element to the situation, which cuts across racial lines but is no less discriminatory and potentially harsh in its treatment of people.
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Post by PapiBear »

reyquila wrote:Charging for access is a very good idea. That may clean the area from undesirable people!!! Let me say that in my last month trip to WDW I did not feel safe in the Orlando area. I felt aprehension there!!!

PS. BTW, I could not agree more with that Mike Thomas.
If Disney Security decides that Puerto Ricans are "undesirable" and should be kept out of the park, will you still agree with them?
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Post by reyquila »

PapiBear wrote:
reyquila wrote:Charging for access is a very good idea. That may clean the area from undesirable people!!! Let me say that in my last month trip to WDW I did not feel safe in the Orlando area. I felt aprehension there!!!

PS. BTW, I could not agree more with that Mike Thomas.
If Disney Security decides that Puerto Ricans are "undesirable" and should be kept out of the park, will you still agree with them?
Certainly!!! I think puertorricans' behavior as a whole is undesirable and that we must pay the consequences. I live in the Island and I can't stand this society!!!Obviously there are exceptions, but I have to face the truth: the behavior of the majority affects me!! Of course, once you charge for admission you can clean the ambiance from troublemakers, which by the way come from all races, colors and countries!!
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Post by kbehm29 »

I'm not going to comment on the guilt or innocence of these four teenagers - however common sense says that they must have been doing something wrong....I hardly think that DTD security kicks people out for following rules.

However - the idea of a "lifetime" ban concerns me. At some point, probably in 10-15 years, these young men are going to become fathers and will not be part of the "loitering" teenage crowd anymore. Is it fair to ban them for life? No. Ban them for five years? Yes.

And how is this "ban" enforced? One generally wouldn't know unless they are stopped and questioned again....?

I think the only reason this story was in the paper at all is because they are soon to become football stars. Just because they are going to college they should be excused from all rule-breaking?
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Post by Princess Stitch »

kbehm29 wrote:I'm not going to comment on the guilt or innocence of these four teenagers - however common sense says that they must have been doing something wrong....I hardly think that DTD security kicks people out for following rules.

However - the idea of a "lifetime" ban concerns me. At some point, probably in 10-15 years, these young men are going to become fathers and will not be part of the "loitering" teenage crowd anymore. Is it fair to ban them for life? No. Ban them for five years? Yes.

And how is this "ban" enforced? One generally wouldn't know unless they are stopped and questioned again....?

I think the only reason this story was in the paper at all is because they are soon to become football stars. Just because they are going to college they should be excused from all rule-breaking?
Actually, they fingerprinted the boys, and Disney uses finger scanners for entrance into the park, so I would assume that they could flag the fingerprints in some way so that when they scan their finger it will show they are banned.

I heard once that if you are ejected from a Disney park, then it is a lifetime ban. If you're doing something bad enough to get kicked out of Disney then it's probably best if you don't come back to the park ever! They may have a rule that if the kids are under 18 then it can be wiped off of their record after a certain amount of time.

Oh, and it wasn't because they were college students, it's because they had important parents....
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Princess Stitch wrote:
Actually, they fingerprinted the boys, and Disney uses finger scanners for entrance into the park, so I would assume that they could flag the fingerprints in some way so that when they scan their finger it will show they are banned.
Are you serious?!? :shock: They sure don't do that at Disneyland...
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Post by disneyfreak90 »

i found their treatment a bit harsh. if they have to arrest people for loittering they should arrest everyone on the resort. but not leaving when asked means they had a reason for being there like to wait for a friend or family member to come back and it's their meeting spot like the castle is for the magic kingdom. those teens should've been treated better if they were just waiting for a friend or waiting for a family member to finish shopping or whatever. actually they should've been treated better period. whats next keeping asians out of the asian pavilions at EPCOT?
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Post by Princess Stitch »

Poody wrote:
Princess Stitch wrote:
Actually, they fingerprinted the boys, and Disney uses finger scanners for entrance into the park, so I would assume that they could flag the fingerprints in some way so that when they scan their finger it will show they are banned.
Are you serious?!? :shock: They sure don't do that at Disneyland...
Yeah apparantly they were having problems with people sharing /reselling tickets. Now there's finger scanners attached to all the turnstiles in the front of the parks. The first time you enter with your ticket your fingerprint is digitally encoded to the ticket so that you can't share it with anyone else.
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Post by mcduck »

It is not about race but about the society, it will be the day when the ambiance of Disneyland parks became history, you can tell that every day it is less friendly yet nobody can blame just the company, this is just a reaction produced by the effect of "our US society" especially in the crowded states, some how they have no choice and every one can be targeted by that position, now about the Hispanic and African-American targeting news, they are lately quite a piece of sensationalism, they really bother, in this case as it was said this became something to look at just because they were the "sons of" and part of the "team of" and not necessarily because their race, in the other hand where the security purely from a Germanic-Scandinavian descend(just to mention part of the white ethnicity usually attributed of been the white race) ?? I do not think so.

castleinthesky wrote:
People can't look Hispanic. The whole idea of Hispanicism is a travesty

agree. by the way I realize that we actually came from the same Laputa!!!
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