Beauty and the Beast: Diamond Edition (October 5th!)

[funloops]

^^It's a CAPS film, quite blaming the format, as we're all blah blah blah blah

[Disney Duster]

Yagooban, you have almost completely ignored so much of what I said in my posts. I acknowledged the things you talked about and said that they may change it slightly, but not so drastically, not like the difference between night and day that it is. See what I said about the other evidence, like having different colored versions of the film on the same DVD.

The only question I have is why my TV needs to be changed whenever I watch a VHS, and changed to something different whenever I watch a DVD, and do I need to change it when I watch a Blu-ray? Though even this explanation of TV settings do not effect the other evidence me and jpanimation pointed out.

Goob, you're my hero.



albert

Please see what I wrote above, and the posts I refer to, then.

[Escapay]

EDIT:

Screw this. I'll watch and enjoy Beauty and the Beast because I like the movie for a variety of reasons, not just its colors (no matter what they are). Anyone that cares to join me can.

If you wanna argue about Colorgate, go right ahead. I'm not gonna bother being on the sidelines with milk buds, I'll just be watching the movie.

albert

[steven132]

I completely agree, I am getting really tired of people complaining, become the CEO and change it, or stop beating the dead, and now maggot filled horse. I visit the forum to see the latest news and images but the rants are over the top. If you like the VHS then buy up a whole bunch and watch them until you wear them out. The rants are not going to make Disney change it and you aren't changing anyone's opinion, just being irritating.

[Disney Duster]

Please see what I wrote above, and the posts I refer to, then.

Why? Goob pretty much covered my whole opinion on any color issue:

• Anybody can throw up some screencaps and point fingers and complain. I'm not going to rule out that changes may have been made. But I am under the distinct impression that a lot of complaints are coming from people who seem to know less about media, mastering, compression, and replication than my own meager understanding. To insist that the differences in the screencaps are due to either incompetence or intentional malice on the part of the company when one cannot or will not acknowledge the host of other variables that may be in play...it's irresponsible and it's intellectually dishonest.

So now we know. And I and others have already acknowledged the "host of other variables". We've done those things and we know it still wouldn't look so drastically different.

Also, you and Yagoob and others conveniently keep ignoring how the colors changed when on digital media, which should be taken directly from the CAPS files. Moreso, you and Yagoob and others keep conveninetly ignoring that the film was shown in different colors on the very same DVD, when no restoration is needed and nothing would change the colors so drastically.

Colors be damned? More like art be damned, is what you are saying.

[Escapay]

EDIT:

Screw this. I'll watch and enjoy Beauty and the Beast because I like the movie for a variety of reasons, not just its colors (no matter what they are). Anyone that cares to join me can.

If you wanna argue about Colorgate, go right ahead. I'm not gonna bother being on the sidelines with milk buds, I'll just be watching the movie.

albert

(and dangit netty, you replied before I could just delete this post!)

[2099net]

Kubrick, maybe it would change a little bit, still not that much. But it also still doesn't explain how the bonus features on the same DVD were completely differently colored and much darker, and the trailers and clips on countless other DVDs. Those would be from the same CAPS source too, and if the colors changed slightly between them, they wouldn't change that much without tampering. It is like night and day.

Most likely clips were taken from film prints (probably multi-generational too), not the original CAPS source. Just as trailers for "newly restored" Disney releases are usually taken from older sources.

However, it is clear the colours change more on BatB than say, Aladdin or other CAPS films. But I can only assume, being as the filmmakers have been involved in both the IMAX re-release, the original DVD release and the 3D re-release, they are perfectly happy with the colours each time. So we should be too.

[Disney Duster]

I considered the taking things from certain sources like that, but when making new bonus features for a digital format, using old print and film and laserdisc sources instead of the CAPS which is always available doesn't make much sense.

But I can only assume, being as the filmmakers have been involved in both the IMAX re-release, the original DVD release and the 3D re-release, they are perfectly happy with the colours each time. So we should be too.

Well, no. I think you mean we should accept that those are the colors they intend. For now. If they keep changing it, though...you must admit, it is hard for us to really respect that they don't give us the original everything, that they don't at least make it available. If they keep changing their minds on how their movie should be, how do they expect us to love it the same? What is "it" anymore if it keeps changing into something else? I realize that is an exaggeration, but it is to make my point clear.

[filmmusic]

Lawd, I'm so tired of the color-&-media-dog-&-pony show.

This isn't addressed to anyone in particular. Technically I should employ the gender-neutral third-person "one" rather than all the "you"s and "you're"s...

If you're convinced your beloved <insert legacy home media release here> is the most authentic to the theatrical presentation, be my guest. You've been watching your home media release for as long as 18 years (if you're old enough) and you've seen it exponentially more often than you ever saw it in its original theatrical run, but if you unquestionably believe you're capable of a clear objective mental reference of your theatrical experience from back when Bill Clinton was still the governor of Arkansas, be my guest. I'm still going to file that under "highly implausible."

You think your DVD looks too bright compared to your VHS? There's a reason for that. Reference black on digital video has a lower value than on analog. Gross oversimplification: you need to turn your brightness down. Somewhat less oversimplified: not only do you need a properly calibrated display to most accurately render image from a given medium, if you want to make a fair comparison between different media you need to properly calibrate for each individual medium you're viewing to get the most accurate reproduction of what each has to offer. That's only if you're interested in making a fair comparison, of course.

CAPS was a unique proprietary system that got dismantled when the studio decided to go all-CG; Musker said early this year that "even the software was gone." If you've got files that can be read by one workstation on the planet, I'm sure all it takes to get those onto a disc that can be read by millions of pieces of hardware is a shake of Tinkerbell's butt.

Different sources, different target media, and different tools & methods used to get the source content onto the target media---will produce different results. And the technology used at every stage in the game has progressed over the past 20 years. Anybody can throw up some screencaps and point fingers and complain. I'm not going to rule out that changes may have been made. But I am under the distinct impression that a lot of complaints are coming from people who seem to know less about media, mastering, compression, and replication than my own meager understanding. To insist that the differences in the screencaps are due to either incompetence or intentional malice on the part of the company when one cannot or will not acknowledge the host of other variables that may be in play...it's irresponsible and it's intellectually dishonest.

You really don't get it, do you?

So let me get this straight:
According to your theory the sky in this screenshot below, was yellow in the original version too that we all saw in the theaters.




But, we all saw THIS sky below due to the medium which was defective (VHS, laserdisc etc.) and the sky seemed desaturated.




SO, according to your theory, shouldn't ALL the YELLOWS of the film look like this desaturated, white-pink-light orange sky??
How do you explain this?

It's NOT the fault of the medium!
the color palette is completely differenet and even if you darken the picture of the bluray-dvd, desaturate colors, lessen reds, lessen oranges, you CAN'T get to the original because it's a differnet spectrum of colors!!

If i could i would post here comparisons of ALL disney animated films i have in VHS and DVD . the screenshots would be more or less the same.
ONLY in BEAuty and the BEAST there it this radical change!

[Timon/Pumbaa fan]

But I can only assume, being as the filmmakers have been involved in both the IMAX re-release, the original DVD release and the 3D re-release, they are perfectly happy with the colours each time. So we should be too.

I'm not choosing any sides really, but by that account, we should be happy with Lucas' Special Editions of Star Wars. After all, Lucas is happy with them, we should be too!

[2099net]

But I can only assume, being as the filmmakers have been involved in both the IMAX re-release, the original DVD release and the 3D re-release, they are perfectly happy with the colours each time. So we should be too.

I'm not choosing any sides really, but by that account, we should be happy with Lucas' Special Editions of Star Wars. After all, Lucas is happy with them, we should be too!

Well, most people are!

The Special Editions sold much more than the DVDs he put out with the original versions on. Many, many, many times more. Yes, I know the original versions were just shoddy LD ports, and not even anamorphic but, you know, people here compare BatBs DVD shots to the LD and VHS... if there was huge demand for the original Star Wars, people would still have bought the shoddy discs.

But Lucas is never happy. He's always going to be tinkering. You know none of the Prequel trilogy has ever appeared on DVD the same as it was presented in the theaters? I have never heard a huge outcry about that at all.

[rodis]

Of course it has nothing to do with the TV settings and everything to do with the colors being altered. I'm obsessed about brightness/contrast/saturation in my TVs and it still looks completely different. One just has to accept the fact that we've been fucked up with ugly bright colors. Again.

[tcclives23]

Well guys there's a blu-ray rip floating around the interweb! I'll post some HD vids on youtube a bit later.

[tcclives23]

Its still processing at the time im posting this but itll be available in a little bit:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IJQr6bmmRt8?fs ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IJQr6bmmRt8?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Ill upload more soon.

[Mr. Yagoobian]

This is the only film whose new release has sparked vitriolic attacks on color presentation? Please.

The only question I have is why my TV needs to be changed whenever I watch a VHS, and changed to something different whenever I watch a DVD...

Because you *do*, if you're interested in the most authentic reproduction on the content on the medium.

And I and others have already acknowledged the "host of other variables". We've done those things and we know it still wouldn't look so drastically different.

If you're asking why you need settings tailored to the individual characteristics of specific media, then no, you haven't begun to acknowledge the importance of all those variables.




Look: if we use displays properly calibrated for each medium, digitize the analog media in a way that guarantees authentic presentation of the content, & capture images in such a way that we can be assured there are no compromises in color---if we could approach this scientifically, with controls and consistency---we could begin to have a dialogue about the differences in the images that each media presents. But that's not the situation we have here. And even if it were, we'd still be making best---and uninformed---guesses as to the causes of those differences: which issues are due to different source materials, or the limitations (or outright degradation) of the target media, or the differences in the tools and methods in creating and monitoring the process of getting the source content on to the target media for each individual release, or error, or intent...or any or all in combination. And we'd still be unable to make an honest comparison between any of these releases and the original theatrical presentation because we have no universal empirical point of reference for the original theatrical presentation, we have individual memories nearly two decades old.

I'd certainly like to know why the differences exist. But no one's going to learn why from a discussion prompted by folks who may or may not have once passed with a stone's throw of a building where post-production work is done, who think that because they have eyes and can take a screenshot they know enough to insist that ONLY explanation is incompetence or malice on the part of the people who did the work. Time after time, film after film, that's how the overwhelming majority of screencap discussion goes, with one end held up by people for whom the bottom line can only be "they fecked it up or they fecked us over" (apologies to <i>Father Ted</i> for the appropriation of the expletive). It's lame.

[The_Iceflash]

^ Her hair looks brown to me!

[miniroll32]

Some of you need to get a life and just enjoy the film.

You're probably worrying more about the colours than what the original artists did!

[filmmusic]

Well, here's a video i just made with comparison of the beauty and the beast song scene from the BLuray (left) and Laserdisc (right).
the quality isn't good because i wanted to keep the file size small, but the point about the colors is made.

http://rapidshare.com/files/421001065/B ... arison.AVI




Beauty and the beast is a travesty of a restored film..
We will never see the original colors again ( I don't believe in a 3rd release of the movie in DVD or BLuray), but we can't do anything about it..

Films are VIDEO (colors, shapes) and AUDIO.
there are changes in the colors in live films too, but there it doesn't bother me too much.
Colors are the most prevalent element in ANIMATION films and when that drastically changes, we have a completely new film!

And here I stop whining about the colors.

[disneyboy20022]

Why does this forum sometimes remind of this clip from Animaniacs

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y6aaLBmUSbI?fs ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y6aaLBmUSbI?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[miniroll32]

Thanks for the screenshots/comparison.

My final word on the colours pretty much mirrors what you've just said. The LaserDisc, although having an analogue output, looks far truer to how would expect the colours to be had I of only seen the film for the very first time. Its that point at which they just seem to "make sense", as it were.

I have a fear that with this restored edition (errm, altered edition), they've changed the colour palette to make the film look almost more modern, or at least in conjunction with a modern audience that now wants everything over-saturated, because kids will no doubt prefer the latter.

This is immediately obvious with Belle's skin colour. It's 2010 and were living in the age of 'High School Music', Camp Rock and all the other dribble that follows along the lines of popularity. Because of the importance now on visual features, they've given Belle a more tanned skin tone that reflects how a girl/woman should like in the land of Disneyfication. Yet on the LaserDisc version which I personally feel is more accurate, Belle's skin tone is far paler and as such, much much more natural looking.

Although I did see Beauty and The Beast when it came out in the Theatre, I won't kid anyone into thinking that I remember the experience like it were yesterday. However, I can perfectly assure any reader that the Blu-Ray is far brighter than anything I saw.

On the other hand, if the latest colour palette is a reflection of how they originally were, then it would back-up the original VHS cover;