Disney accused of profiling black teens

[PapiBear]

Disney accused of profiling black teens
4 FSU prospects ejected for loitering, refusing to leave, parks spokeswoman counters


Florida State University football prospects Vincent Williams
(clockwise from top left), Avis Commack, Nigel Carr and
Nickolas Moody were ejected from Walt Disney World last
weekend.

Henry Pierson Curtis and Scott Powers

Sentinel Staff Writers

June 27, 2007

Walt Disney World ejected four of Florida State University's top football prospects from Downtown Disney last weekend under its anti-gang, no-loitering policy.

The four, including the son of a Disney manager and the son of a Philadelphia civil-rights lawyer, were banned for life from Disney World property late Friday.

A Disney spokeswoman said the youths were expelled because they had been loitering for an extended period and refused to leave when Disney security told them to.

Parents of the youths wonder whether there's another reason: They're black.

"I keep thinking to myself, 'This is crazy,' " said Mark Nugent, stepfather of Vincent Williams, football star at Ridge Community High School in Polk County. "Once they realized they weren't gangbangers, why didn't they let them go? They took their pictures. They fingerprinted them. And treated them like common criminals."

Because of concerns about a rise in ganglike activity at Downtown Disney lately, loitering or "any other inappropriate behavior" by groups of youths is not going to be tolerated, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said Tuesday.

"This group was seen loitering for an extended period of time," she said. "When asked, sometime after 11:30, they produced a movie ticket for a film that had already started sometime earlier. Security asked them to go to the movie or leave, and they failed to cooperate."

Philadelphia attorney Adrian J. Moody, father of one of the players, said he thinks his son was a victim of racial profiling.

"Why else would they follow them for an hour and a half to two hours?" said Moody, whose son, Nickolas Moody, listed on the police report as Nickolas Cannon, plays safety for Roman Catholic High School in Philadelphia. "And how can you trespass someone in Downtown Disney for walking around? I've been there before, and that's why it's there."

48 warnings issued in 2 weekends

Orange County deputy sheriffs have issued at least 48 trespass warnings at Downtown Disney during the past two weekends since the push against loitering began. Records of those cases provided to the Orlando Sentinel show that 45 of the 46 people banned from Disney for life during the past two weekends were blacks or Hispanics.

Three cases involved white teens. Of those, two were banned only from the Virgin Megastore and are free to return anytime to Disney.

Polak said the decision to expel those two guests was made by the store management, not by Disney, so the ban only applied to the store.

Records show the only white teen banned so far from Disney was accused of creating a disturbance outside the Planet Hollywood restaurant by loitering, arguing with Disney guards, swearing at them and refusing to leave the property.

The incident began after five future FSU Seminoles gathered last weekend at Williams' Davenport home for a get-together barbecue.

Each will be a high-school senior in the fall, and all have made oral commitments to sign with Florida State. The get-together was highly publicized on an FSU fans' Web site, Warchant.com, as a way for the recruits to form bonds they hoped would last through their college years.

"We worked out," Nigel Carr, an outside linebacker at Jacksonville First Coast High School, told Warchant.com. "We also went to Disney, Wet 'n Wild and CityWalk. It was just really fun."

In addition to Williams, Moody and Carr, Avis Commack also was issued a trespass warning, according to the Sheriff's Office and interviews. All are 17.

Ranked as one of the top 10 high-school wide receivers in the nation, Commack attends First Coast High School.

The fifth player, Moses McCray, 17, of Hillsborough High School in Tampa, said he left before Disney issued the trespass warnings and was not banned.

After dinner Friday, Williams' mother and stepfather drove the five teens to Downtown Disney so they could look around and enjoy the evening. Williams' mother is a supervisor at Walt Disney World's Polynesian Resort.

The parents' cell phone rang about midnight. It was Vincent, upset and asking them to come as soon as possible to take him and his friends home.

"They're harassing us. They're being nasty to us," Nugent remembered his stepson saying about being approached by more than a dozen Disney security guards and Orange County deputies.

According to sheriff's Cmdr. Larry Krantz, who supervised the off-duty deputies working at Downtown Disney last weekend, Disney security officers said they spoke to the football players several times during the evening.

At one point, the teens tried to enter the Pleasure Island complex of nightclubs after 11 p.m. when entry switches to those 21 and older. They declined to go to the movies as suggested and said they were at Downtown Disney to pick up girls, Krantz said he was told.

From his own observations, he said, the athletes were not aggressive or rude, but he understood that at least one made "kind of smart remarks" to Disney security.

At one point, they asked why no Puerto Rican or white teens were being asked to leave, Krantz said. Then, a white teen and a Hispanic teen were brought in, and all the teens started slapping "high-fives" and joking, he said.

McCray, a 6-foot-2-inch, 268-pound defensive tackle, said the group had been sitting on a bench after leaving Pleasure Island when a number of security guards and deputies approached them. That's when he left, he said.

Friends were 'just chilling,' teen says

Commack said he and his friends were "just chilling together" at Downtown Disney and that they thought they were followed "because we were a group of black kids they assumed were out to make trouble."

Sheriff's spokesman Capt. Mark Strobridge said Tuesday evening that the agency works closely with Walt Disney security to identify and remove anyone causing problems at the theme parks and Downtown Disney.

"The feedback we have received is that many of the guests have been happy with our presence," Strobridge said.

Nugent, Vincent Williams' stepfather, defended the players by saying they are all good kids as well as hardworking, outstanding athletes.

"Is it because they're all over 6 feet tall and black?" asked Nugent, who is white. "I want the trespass warnings dropped so the kids can visit Disney if they want. And an apology would be nice."

===================================

It'll be entertaining to read the excuses trotted out for this one.

[PapiBear]

Updated -

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-disn ... 9777.story

Disney reverses 4 teens' lifetime ban

Scott Powers and Henry Pierson Curtis

Sentinel Staff Writers

June 29, 2007

The four Florida State University football prospects who were kicked out of Downtown Disney for loitering last week and banned for life from Walt Disney World can now come back.

Disney World announced Thursday that it has decided to reduce the sanctions against the four high-schoolers, whose banishment last weekend amplified a controversy about Disney's recent efforts to reduce teen loitering and sparked accusations of racial profiling. All four of the students are 17 years old and black.

Disney officials, after talking with the mother of one of the teens, decided to revise the trespass warnings so that the four are banned only from Downtown Disney -- not from the theme parks, water parks or other parts of Disney World. And the Downtown Disney ban will last only for one year, not a lifetime.

That means that, shortly after they are ready to graduate from high school next spring -- they'll all be seniors this fall -- the ban will be lifted entirely.

But the families of the teens were uncertain Thursday how to respond to Disney's decision. One parent said they would discuss it and get back to Disney today.

"We were hoping they would lift the ban entirely. We felt like they shouldn't have been banned at all. We also wanted an apology," said Mark Nugent, stepfather of Vincent Williams, a football star at Ridge Community High School in Polk County. "It looks like we're not getting either of those two things."

Final decision, not an offer

Disney has not changed its mind about the incident last Friday and is not contemplating an apology, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said. She also said the move to reduce the sanctions was a final decision by the resort, not an offer.

Polak would not elaborate on what had emerged during discussions with the four teens' families that led Disney World to scale back its sanctions against the students, all of whom have given oral commitments to attend Florida State University in 2008.

"Our review of the incident has not changed our determination that the behavior of these four individuals was not appropriate," Polak said.

Crackdown on loitering

The four students -- who, in addition to Williams, also included Nigel Carr, Avis Commack and Nickolas Moody -- were kicked off Disney property as part of larger crackdown on youth loitering this month that has resulted in dozens of trespass warnings and banishments.

Polak said Thursday's decision does not affect the other trespass cases, though Disney could reconsider any case if asked.

Disney World had grown concerned this spring about teen loitering and the possibility of an emerging street-gang presence at Downtown Disney, a complex of stores, restaurants, nightclubs and shows.

So two weeks ago, Disney security officers, bolstered by Orange County deputy sheriffs, began a late-night crackdown on Fridays and Saturdays, hoping to drive out loitering youth before trouble could begin.

Those youths who cannot convince Disney security officers that they have a good reason to be in Downtown Disney late at night are told to leave; those who then refuse to do so are issued trespass warnings banning them from Disney World for life and are expelled from the property.

When the Orlando Sentinel obtained 46 Disney World trespass-warning documents from the past two weekends, all but one turned out to have been issued to black or Hispanic visitors.

That led some of the family members, including Nugent and a Philadelphia-based civil-rights lawyer -- Adrian J. Moody, father of Nickolas, one of the four football players -- to openly question whether Disney's security was using racial profiling to target and drive out minority youth.

The elder Moody, however, sounded encouraged Thursday by Disney's response.

"That makes me feel a little better," he said. "I think they should give these kids some kind of an apology, but I need to look into this more."

Disney has maintained that the crackdown has been aimed at loitering youth and possible gang members regardless of ethnicity or race. The four players who were banned late last Friday had loitered for more than an hour, responded inappropriately to security officers and refused to leave when told to go, Disney officials have said.

Sheriff's Office concurs

The Sheriff's Office has backed up the resort and agreed Thursday that the incident had been handled properly.

"The Orange County Sheriff's Office from the very beginning of this case took appropriate action at the request of Walt Disney World and issued proper trespass warnings," sheriff's Capt. Mark Strobridge said. "It is and remains Walt Disney World's decision to set the guidelines and enforce trespass warnings as they see fit."

There is no formal appeals process for lifetime trespass bans, but the company does review trespass warnings and listens whenever people want to discuss them, Polak said.

Other people who think they have been unfairly banished from the resort can always call and ask to discuss their cases, she said. She suggested people could start with the Disney World general switchboard, 407-824-2222.

Still overkill, but at least it isn't "for life." Universal just laughs at this stuff.

You see why we make so much noise over things of this nature? "In the past..." pssht, yeah, right.

[Disney-Fan]

It'll be entertaining to read the excuses trotted out for this one.

It's interesting that any debate that would spark as a result of these articles would be treated by your part as nothing more than mere "excuses". Now I get why it seems you never listen. You just don't feel any argument could possibly be as legit as yours.

You see why we make so much noise over things of this nature? "In the past..." pssht, yeah, right.

So now Disney acknowledges the mistake and takes action accordingly yet it's still not good enough? Do you even realise how self-righteous you are being? As members have pointed out, you're too blinded by your own racist views to realise that action is being taken against such cases and that people are willing to listen, learn and evolve from past mistakes, new and old.

[PapiBear]

It'll be entertaining to read the excuses trotted out for this one.

It's interesting that any debate that would spark as a result of these articles would be treated by your part as nothing more than mere "excuses". Now I get why it seems you never listen. You just don't feel any argument could possibly be as legit as yours.

Is there one, though? Let me know if you have one.

You see why we make so much noise over things of this nature? "In the past..." pssht, yeah, right.

So now Disney acknowledges the mistake and takes action accordingly yet it's still not good enough? Do you even realise how self-righteous you are being? As members have pointed out, you're too blinded by your own racist views to realise that action is being taken against such cases and that people are willing to listen, learn and evolve from past mistakes, new and old.

Explain to me how I'm racist, and why it's important for me to be silent on racial matters. After all, if all Black people just accepted whatever was dealt to us, and didn't protest it, those things would just magically work themselves out and self-correct immediately, wouldn't they?

[Princess Stitch]

Maybe it wasn't because they were black, maybe it was because they were doing something that was against the rules.

Obviously they have had enough problems for them to want to enact a policy at downtown Disney. Truly, the proper way to handle things would have been for the teens to just leave when asked to, and THEN make a stink about things afterwards. Letting it get to the point where they were banned and fingerprinted was reckless and dumb on their part.

[Disney-Fan]

Is there one, though? Let me know if you have one.

Sorry, I'm not here to offer 'excuses'. I'll let some other poor member do that in my place. I'm done trying to share my perspective on the subject matter.

[PapiBear]

Is there one, though? Let me know if you have one.

Sorry, I'm not here to offer 'excuses'. I'll let some other poor member do that in my place. I'm done trying to share my perspective on the subject matter.

Oh, okay. I wonder what that perspective was?

Oh, by the way - thanks for answering all those questions I put to you. I appreciate it.

[PapiBear]

Maybe it wasn't because they were black, maybe it was because they were doing something that was against the rules.

Read this, please (don't worry, it was written by a white man):

http://www.counterpunch.org/wise04242006.html

Obviously they have had enough problems for them to want to enact a policy at downtown Disney. Truly, the proper way to handle things would have been for the teens to just leave when asked to, and THEN make a stink about things afterwards.

Yes, of course. Teens are famous for always obediently doing what they're told. They've been like that for ages. This was clearly just an anomaly.

Letting it get to the point where they were banned and fingerprinted was reckless and dumb on their part.

Yes, of course, because police and security personnel could never possibly be overstating a threat and make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Princess Stitch]

Maybe it wasn't because they were black, maybe it was because they were doing something that was against the rules.

Read this, please (don't worry, it was written by a white man):

http://www.counterpunch.org/wise04242006.html

First of all, I don't appreciate comments like this towards me. I assume that you're here to debate this issue and get other's opinions as this is a discussion board. I would like to respectfully ask that you watch your personal comments about me, especially ones that are unwarranted.

I did read the article and I found it very interesting. I believe that that majority of it is true. People can only go by what they see and there is no way for a person to ever live in anyone else's shoes. However, I think that had the teens in the orignal article not been black (or had they not had important parents)it woudln't have been published in the first place.

Obviously they have had enough problems for them to want to enact a policy at downtown Disney. Truly, the proper way to handle things would have been for the teens to just leave when asked to, and THEN make a stink about things afterwards.

Yes, of course. Teens are famous for always obediently doing what they're told. They've been like that for ages. This was clearly just an anomaly.

I'm not saying all teens listen. I'm just saying that they didn't handle themselved properly either. Obviously the article does not provide us a full picture, but I doubt they were asked to leave because they were sitting around reading library books. If a security guard or police officer asks you to vacate private property, then you have to leave. Just like if a cop pulls you over to give you a ticket, you have to stop the car. You can fight the charge later, but choosing not to follow rules has consequences.

Now, is it possible that people feel more threatened by black teens congregating than white teens? It's absolutely possible. The media puts a notion into people's heads that all gang members are minorities. I would like to think that the complaints are investigated though before any action is taken.

Letting it get to the point where they were banned and fingerprinted was reckless and dumb on their part.

Yes, of course, because police and security personnel could never possibly be overstating a threat and make a mountain out of a molehill.

I stand by what I said. Alot of places have zero-tolerance policies now on certain things. They were asked more than once to leave the property, they weren't booted the first time someone came across them. The rule at DTD is that you're not allowed to loiter on the property. If they were not going to a club or seeing a movie or shopping, then sitting around for hours on end is loitering. If you're in a place where loitering is not allowed, then you need to leave when asked. A rule is a rule no matter what the colour of your skin.

[Kram Nebuer]

"This group was seen loitering for an extended period of time," she said. "When asked, sometime after 11:30, they produced a movie ticket for a film that had already started sometime earlier. Security asked them to go to the movie or leave, and they failed to cooperate."

Why would you buy a ticket for a movie and then not watch it? That's just a waste of money.

If it was a bad movie and they walked out because it wasn't worth staying for it, why stay at Downtown Disney that late? Why not go rent a better movie and hang out at home? They can't get into Pleasure Island and all the shops and stuff would be closing at that time. What's the point in staying?

It seems that the reason they were "loitering" was because they left this movie early. If their intention was to hang out together and watch a movie, why not go elsewhere and watch a movie? Why stay at a place that's practically almost closed and refuse to leave when asked to? I agree with Princess Stitch, that the teens brought it to themselves for letting it get out of hand when all they had to do was simply leave. I always felt it rude for anyone to hang out at some place after their business with that place is over. Like in restaurants, if you're done eating and you've paid the check, it's awfully rude to stay for long afterwards.

This article is too biased and one sided to have a valid debate. If it said that there were Puerto Rican and White teens hanging out doing the same things the Black teens were doing, yet not being asked to leave, then yes, I would see how racism is playing a part in this situation.

[castleinthesky]

I'd like to see both sides of this story, just not the side of the protecting parents.

However, from what I've read from the parents, the kids shouldn't have had the harsh lifetime suspension.

However, if they were doing gang activities and the such, then they should be. We don't know what really happened. Disney might just be taking away the suspension because they are afraid of what the ACLU and NAACP will say, in which those two groups have too much say in anything, especially the latter.

[PapiBear]

This article is too biased and one sided to have a valid debate. If it said that there were Puerto Rican and White teens hanging out doing the same things the Black teens were doing, yet not being asked to leave, then yes, I would see how racism is playing a part in this situation.

The Orlando Sentinel is hardly biased and one-sided, since it clearly reported both sides of the matter. In fact, it's been reported that in some instances white youths who were harassing others and visibly drunk were bypassed by security in favor of targeting of Black and Hispanic youths.

Eyewitness video & story

Out of the 50 warnings issued last weekend, the Sheriff's Office was able to find only 40 of the reports. Warnings were issued to 20 young Hispanic males, 19 young black males and one young black female.

None came from Orange County, the location of Downtown Disney. Eleven were from Osceola County, 11 from Lake County, 11 from Polk County, five from Georgia and one each from Arizona, Texas and an unreported location.

One of the teens told never to come back asked why no whites were among those warned about trespassing.

"A whole bunch of white boys walked by yelling and stuff, and they didn't do nothing to them," said Michael Washington, 16, of Polk City.

Washington said that he, his brother and three cousins drove to Downtown Disney on Friday night to go to the movies. They met two young black men and a woman in the parking lot who said "they were arresting all black folks."

He said Disney security officers followed them after they visited a store. One of his cousins cursed the guards after being stopped, Washington said.

Asked whether he thought race played a role in why they were ejected, the teen said, "I don't know. I don't know, sir. They came straight at the black crowd."

[castleinthesky]

This just irritates me. How do they know these people are Hispanic or not. For all we know all those "white" people have descendents from Spain, Argentina, Costa Rica, or Cuba. Same goes with the "black" people.

[PapiBear]

I'd like to see both sides of this story, just not the side of the protecting parents.

The articles related to this clearly state the POV of Disney security and of the sheriff's department.

However, from what I've read from the parents, the kids shouldn't have had the harsh lifetime suspension.

I refer you to the update (second post), wherein it states that Disney relented and limited the ban to DTD and just for one year. It's still overkill, given the fact that these kids weren't really doing anything wrong, just hanging out, waiting for a movie to start (their movie showtime was about an hour or so later).

However, if they were doing gang activities and the such, then they should be.

Well they weren't.

We don't know what really happened.

Actually we do. Both sides have made their cases known.

Disney might just be taking away the suspension because they are afraid of what the ACLU and NAACP will say, in which those two groups have too much say in anything, especially the latter.

Considering that neither group has even been mentioned at all in this, the fact that you're using this opportunity to take cheap shots at these civil rights organizations is lamentable. I know you might like to think that Disney NEVER violates civil rights laws, but in fact, security forces of all kinds do sometimes overstep their bounds.

[PapiBear]

This just irritates me. How do they know these people are Hispanic or not. For all we know all those "white" people have descendents from Spain, Argentina, Costa Rica, or Cuba. Same goes with the "black" people.

I dunno, maybe they talked with them and got IDs? Wild guess.

What exactly do you mean by "how do they know they're Black"? Do you think ethnicity is made up now?

[castleinthesky]

What exactly do you mean by "how do they know they're Black"? Do you think ethnicity is made up now?

No, don't get me wrong. But we both know there are many black people from the Dominican Republic and other nations of South, Central America, the Carribbean, and Mexico. Yet many of these black people are "Hispanics" since they come from a spaish language nation. So couldn't any of the four black teens be Hispanic as well?

People can't look Hispanic. The whole idea of Hispanicism is a travesty.

Edit:
I also just realized that this is also profiling based on age.

[PapiBear]

What exactly do you mean by "how do they know they're Black"? Do you think ethnicity is made up now?

No, don't get me wrong. But we both know there are many black people from the Dominican Republic and other nations of South, Central America, the Carribbean, and Mexico. Yet many of these black people are "Hispanics" since they come from a spaish language nation. So couldn't any of the four black teens be Hispanic as well?

Yes, they could, certainly. There are definitely Black Hispanics, as well as white Hispanics, Native Hispanics, and mestizo Hispanics. But in this case, these four young men aren't Hispanic. However, there are Hispanics who were also banned from Disney property.

People can't look Hispanic. The whole idea of Hispanicism is a travesty.

Well, it wasn't like people were shot on sight. Personal contact was made, IDs checked, names taken, etc. But if you think that Hispanic people can't be recognized as Hispanic in any case, you'd be wrong.

Anyway, what was your point about all that? Police regularly target Black and Hispanic youth, all around the country. Sometimes it's warranted, but a lot of times it isn't.

[castleinthesky]

Well, it wasn't like people were shot on sight. Personal contact was made, IDs checked, names taken, etc. But if you think that Hispanic people can't be recognized as Hispanic in any case, you'd be wrong.

The last time I checked IDs don't tell your "race", and if so Hispanic wouldn't be on it, since it isn't a race.

I bet if you saw me you wouldn't say I'm Hispanic, yet I am. Because apparently to the majority of the US, I'm "white", because I don't look like the majority of poor Mexicans that come to the US to work.

Yes, some people can be identified as Hispanic. There is no doubt. Some Spaniards are easy to identify, as well as others. However, with the mestizo and mulatto Hispanics it can be sometimes hard to tell if they are Hispanic or of gypsy descent or of Italian descent, Arabic descent, etc. And in the case of some of those from Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile they could easily be also identified as Italian, German, British, French, and others. That's why no one can look Hispanic. With white people you see a range of skin shades, and the same goes with black people. With white people you can see a form of skull structure and hair texture, the same with black people. You cannot do this with Hispanics, because down to the point, Hispanic is a made up race by Nixon.

[PapiBear]

Well, it wasn't like people were shot on sight. Personal contact was made, IDs checked, names taken, etc. But if you think that Hispanic people can't be recognized as Hispanic in any case, you'd be wrong.

The last time I checked IDs don't tell your "race", and if so Hispanic wouldn't be on it, since it isn't a race.

Maybe not in your state, but in plenty of others, they do.

Plus, as far as Black ethnicity, most of the time you can tell just by looking at someone. As far as Hispanic ethnicity, all that's usually needed is a Spanish surname.

I bet if you saw me you wouldn't say I'm Hispanic, yet I am. Because apparently to the majority of the US, I'm "white", because I don't look like the majority of poor Mexicans that come to the US to work.

Yes, some people can be identified as Hispanic. There is no doubt. Some Spaniards are easy to identify, as well as others. However, with the mestizo and mulatto Hispanics it can be sometimes hard to tell if they are Hispanic or of gypsy descent or of Italian descent, Arabic descent, etc. And in the case of some of those from Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile they could easily be also identified as Italian, German, British, French, and others. That's why no one can look Hispanic. With white people you see a range of skin shades, and the same goes with black people. With white people you can see a form of skull structure and hair texture, the same with black people. You cannot do this with Hispanics, because down to the point, Hispanic is a made up race by Nixon.

From what I've seen, there's just as much range of appearance amongst Hispanic people as well. That's why I don't usually refer to it as a race, but rather an ethnicity, because there are a number of shared cultural aspects, including language.

[castleinthesky]

The last time I checked IDs don't tell your "race", and if so Hispanic wouldn't be on it, since it isn't a race.

Maybe not in your state, but in plenty of others, they do.

Plus, as far as Black ethnicity, most of the time you can tell just by looking at someone. As far as Hispanic ethnicity, all that's usually needed is a Spanish surname.

The US census itself states that Hispanic is not a race, and on the 2000 census, you were able to choose hispanic, and also choose your race (i.e. White, Black, Eastern Asian, American Indian, Pacific Islander).

A Spanish Surname is not good at identifiying Hispanicism. Many people from South, Central America, Mexico, and the Carribbean, from Spanish Language Nations (as well as Equitorial Guinea) have French, German, Italian, Welsh, Lebanese, and Portuguese surnames. Myself I have an Irish surname, because my ancestry is both Spanish and Irish.

And also language is not always shared. Myself I cannot fully speak spanish, and many others cannot either speak Spanish at all, especially if their spanish ancestors arrived in the 1800s or before and then assimilated into the english language.