Darby O'Gill and the Little People DVD Press Release

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AwallaceUNC
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Post by AwallaceUNC »

disneyboy wrote:U mean u gave WideScreen Advocate the info.?
He means that the information in that post was originally posted on the UltimateDisney.com home page. Joshua Clinard is also a member here, and was just relaying the information. Hope that clears it up. :)

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Darby O'pen-mattedness

Post by deathie mouse »

If only "open-matte" prints weren't played with when transfered to video, then it wouldn't be too bad. As 2099net and Luke have said, they would only show empty space above the heads and more of the body of the actors below, making the film less dramatic and losing it's cinematic tension. (A close-up becomes a medium shot, a medium shot becomes a long shot, etc). That's the main problem with 4:3 versions of "open matte" films on home video: They become boring or worse. Psycho isn't as scary for example. (On the other hand, pan/scan video versions of hard matted/Scope films still have the tension, but they loose up to half the movie!':lol:')

So to regain the movie experience back on an open matte dvd, a film enthusiast would only have to put black matte ("closed matte"? ':wink:') cardboards on front of a 4:3 display, or use the zoom feature in a 16:9 display, and he would get the exact same thing as a 4:3 "letterboxed" widescreen transfer, while the ones that don't like the "evil" black bars wouldn't get them.

The problem with that is that there's always the possibility that during the transfer the image might be repositioned or zoomed-in, in an inconsistent manner, on different segments of the movie, to avoid microphones and dolly tracks, to bring up more detail in long shots, or to make a close-up a close-up again from the open matted frame, etc. So if you used the carboard or the 16:9 zoom you'd end up making it worse!

And there is also the loss of resolution if you're watching it on a 16:9 display, since a 1.75 "letterboxed" for 4:3 displays NTSC dvd has about an average of 390 pixels per picture height, while a 1.75 enhanced "sixteen-niner" has about 440 pixels per picture height. That's just enough to make it look sharper (and why we like "anamorphically enhanced" DVD's better :D)

This is frustrating, as some years ago when I read that the new video formats were gonna be 16:9 instead of 4:3 the first thing that came to my mind was that Disney's non-scope widescreen movies were gonna be ideal for them since their ratio was almost a perfect fit. I hope that if indeed Darby was shot widescreen and the DVD ends up being 4:3, if I crop it to around 1.66~1.75 there won't be too many chopped foreheads or shoes...

As for the loss of resolution, well a letterboxed PAL 4:3 DVD of a widescreen movie has about the same pixel count as an enhanced 16:9 NTSC dvd... but reportedly the R4 Australia doesnt look too good.

Maybe the film elements are in very bad shape...

I seem to recall seeing a segment on tv many years ago and it looked good. Maybe a previous NTSC 4:3 video master is the only thing available that looks good, and that's what's being used? I hope not.


Wow. My first post. I've been lurking for 9 months now but I couldn't stand it anymore. Hi all whom I've read lots of posts '8)', and hi Luke. i love your site and check it daily. ':P'



*prepares to send and wonders if the smileys will come out right or in pan and scan...
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Post by AwallaceUNC »

Hi and welcome! Glad to see that you've decided to join, and your first post was an informative one. Your avatar is very cool, by the way. You might wanna introduce yourself in the Disney Story/introduction thread here. :)

-Aaron
• Author of Hocus Pocus in Focus: The Thinking Fan's Guide to Disney's Halloween Classic
and The Thinking Fan's Guide to Walt Disney World: Magic Kingdom (Epcot coming soon)
• Host of Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Pod, the longest-running Disney podcast
• Entertainment Writer & Moderator at DVDizzy.com
• Twitter - @aaronspod
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Post by disneyboy »

All very confusing. I just want Darby and Family Band in WS. THATS ALL I WANT! :(
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Post by Luke »

Yes, welcome to the site, deathie mouse. Great post, and I'm glad you registered. :eye:

Great post too, 2099net! I hope the informative posts in this thread can enlighten some on this pretty complex issue.
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Post by Joshua Clinard »

When I report information from this site, or any other DVD site, I always mention the source of the info. I don't plagerize! If a news post, such as the one about Darby O'Gill, doesn't include a source, it means I got the information directly from Disney. In this case I got it from Disney's Publicity site. Hope that clears things up.
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Post by Hennie »

Disney.co.uk

In the UK it seems they get the widescreen version :)
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Post by deathie mouse »

ok, that's it. i'm moving to the UK :lol:

hopefully , unless they are using an already made old widescreen PAL master, this may mean new transfers, and R1 gets a widescreen one too?
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Post by 2099net »

Sendit.com (formally Blackstar) lists full frame.

http://www.sendit.com/video/item/7000000088374

I think Disney UK have just made another mistake :roll:
Most of my Blu-ray collection some of my UK discs aren't on their database
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Post by Chernabog »

:twisted:
It´s not in Widescreen, it´s Fullframe
I have it!
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Post by Hennie »

:evil:
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Post by Luke »

It's odd that such a popular title would get extras and a fullscreen release, but after <a href="http://www.ultimatedisney.com/oneandonly.html">The One and Only, Genuine, Original Family Band</a>, I suppose I can believe it. Shame that this seems to be the case for Darby O' Gill and The Shaggy Dog (which sounds like an interesting spin-off!)
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Aspect Ratios

Post by disneyunlimited »

Joe Carioca wrote:There should be a book in which we could find the original aspect ratio of all Disney movies - it would make our lives so easier, hehe.
The "book" that you're looking for, Joe, is called The Internet Movie DataBase:

http://imdb.com

If you check the specs for Darby O'Gill you'll see it was filmed on standard 35mm stock, so is therefore a full screen film:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0052722/technical

Okay, so it was shown in cinemas at 1.75:1 but by issuing it in full frame Disney are allowing us the choice of watching it in 1.33:1 or 1.85:1.

Watching it on a widescreen TV will chop off the top and bottom but that isn't a problem as being "framed" by the director for 1.75:1 means you WON'T be chopping off peoples heads AND you're seeing it in as near as dammit the same ratio as the cinema version.

So what's the problem?

Disney CANNOT release this film in "anamorphic" widescreen unless they crop it to 1.85:1 and then you'll have people complaining that it's wider than it should be and part of the original frame is missing! This will always be a problem with films intended to be viewed at 1.66:1 and 1.75:1 and it's a shame the "purists" out there can't just get accept this and get over it!

Just be grateful the film is being issued on DVD at all and stop looking for things to complain about all the time...
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Post by deathie mouse »

One book I use as a rough guide is Leonard Maltin's VideoGuide that usually mentions if a special (non-spherical 35mm) process was used, and of course, the year. Combining the two you can usually determine the aproximate aspect ratio the film was projected in, including most Disney movies.

Here's my own list of Aspect Ratios.. The year cut-off dates are aproximate:

1- Silent films 1.333
2- Early sound films (up to about 1931): between 1.17 and 1.375
3- Academy sound (up to around 1955) : 1.375

After around 1955 unless a "special" format is mentioned, it was probably shot with "Academy like" cameras, but in "open matte" or "hard matte" widescreen variations, their aspect ratios usually being, (but not always):

4- USA widescreens: Shot "hard matte" 1.85 or "open matte" 1.375, but composed and intended to be projected at1.85.
5- European widescreens. Shot "hard matte" 1.66 or "open matte" 1.375, but composed and intended to be projected at1.66.
6- Disney widescreens. Shot "open matte" 1.375, but composed and intended to be projected at around 1.75, the average of the previous 2 aspect ratios for maximum compability in both markets; or rendered in the CAPS system at 1.66, usually projected at 1.85.


TV programming kept being shot in Academy ratio (with allowances for TV's "safe action area") till recently, now slowly changing towards the "HDTV" aspect ratio of "16:9"


Then we have the special widescreen processes which are many but fall mainly into::

7- CINERAMA (only 2 movies): 2.59
8- VistaVision: shot in 1.5, composed and intended to be projected at 1.85
6- Technirama: Shot at 2.25. Projected in 2.35 Scope, or 2.20 70mm.
9- 70mm Todd-AO/SuperPanavision: 2.20
10- 70mm Camera-65/UltraPanavision: 2.75

Plus the zillion "scope" processes that use various negative formats but are projected as "Scope" (Anamorphic 2x lens) prints:

non scope negative:


11- Superscope: Shot in the silent 1.33 aperture but composed and intended to be projected at 2.00
12- Superscope 235: Shot in the silent 1.33 aperture but composed and intended to be projected at 2.35
13- Super-35: The current "son of Superscope" process we have today, which is usually used for Scope prints (but not always, sometimes used for standart widescreen 1.85 movies too) shot with the silent aperure 1.33 but composed and intended to be projected at 2.40 or 2.39 (depending on year, see below)
14- Techniscope: 2.35 or 2.40 (depending on year, see below)

true scope negative:

15- Magnetic Cinemascope (up to around 1956): 2.55
16- Optical Cinemascope/Panavision (1956-1970): 2.35
17- Optical Panavision (1971 -1994): 2.40
18- Digital Panavision (1995 -today): 2.39
19- Also the rare 55mm shot Cinemascope55 (2 movies): 2.55

(Several format names are equivalent: Cinemascope, Panavision, Arrivision, etc etc.. When it says at the end of the movie "Filmed WITH Panavision cameras and lenses" it usually means standart "academic"1.66-1.85 widescreen as opposed to "Filmed IN Panavision" which means filmed in 2.xx "Scope")


Oh, and there's one more "aspect ratio", #20: Abel Gance's silent movie Napoleon which in it's last reel widened to three x 1.33 = 4.00


Formats 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, 12, and 13 could all possibly have "Fullscreen" open matte video versions that show more of the vertical image than intended, if the camera negative wasn't shot with a hard matte.
As disneyunlimited wrote:Watching it on a widescreen TV will chop off the top and bottom but that isn't a problem as being "framed" by the director for 1.75:1 means you WON'T be chopping off peoples heads AND you're seeing it in as near as dammit the same ratio as the cinema version
So you should try that on some of your "Fullscreen" post 1955 movies and see if it works :)

Also, keep in mind most TV's have some form of overscan, so they are already cropping/chopping off some percent of this vertical "open matte" area that's not supposed to be seen, but since they also chop/crop part of the width that IS, an open matte transfer might look like it's a little pan/scanned, while all it needs is to eliminate the extra vertical space to become widescreen


hope this helps :ears:
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Darby O'Gill

Post by Disney Guru »

I wish it was in Widescreen but I guess that will do. I will buy it anyways because I am glad it is coming to dvd.
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Re: Aspect Ratios

Post by Luke »

disneyunlimited wrote:Disney CANNOT release this film in "anamorphic" widescreen unless they crop it to 1.85:1 and then you'll have people complaining that it's wider than it should be and part of the original frame is missing! This will always be a problem with films intended to be viewed at 1.66:1 and 1.75:1 and it's a shame the "purists" out there can't just get accept this and get over it!
Not so. Disney does 1.66:1 and 1.75:1 anamorphic widescreen releases all the time. If you're not seeing the tiny black bars on the sides, it's because of overscan. Check out screencaps on the reviews of <a href="http://www.ultimatedisney.com/thomasina.html">Three Lives of Thomasina</a> or <a href="http://www.ultimatedisney.com/teachersp ... >Teacher's Pet</a> or many other animated ones to see this.
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1.66:1 Anamorphic?

Post by disneyunlimited »

"Anamorphic widescreen" on DVD is simply a 1.85:1 image stretched to fill a 1.33:1 screen.

So, OK, Luke, I'll accept that it is possible to encode a 1.66:1 image anamorphically but only, as you say, if they add black bars to the left and right of the picture which sort of defeats the purpose as you're losing vertical resolution just so you can improve the horizontal resolution! (No doubt, deathie mouse can do the pixel calculations for us and explain it a bit better!)
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Re: 1.66:1 Anamorphic?

Post by Luke »

disneyunlimited wrote:"Anamorphic widescreen" on DVD is simply a 1.85:1 image stretched to fill a 1.33:1 screen.

So, OK, Luke, I'll accept that it is possible to encode a 1.66:1 image anamorphically but only, as you say, if they add black bars to the left and right of the picture which sort of defeats the purpose as you're losing vertical resolution just so you can improve the horizontal resolution! (No doubt, deathie mouse can do the pixel calculations for us and explain it a bit better!)
Anything wider than 1.45:1 or so (didn't do the math, but I remember hearing this) still has more resolution windowboxed in 16x9 than letterboxed.
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Re: 1.66:1 Anamorphic?

Post by Joshua Clinard »

disneyunlimited wrote:"Anamorphic widescreen" on DVD is simply a 1.85:1 image stretched to fill a 1.33:1 screen.
Actually, it is quite the opposite. Anamorphic widescreen is shot on a 4x3 negative using special lenses, and then streched to an aspect ratio of 1.85:1 or 2.35:1 at the theater, or on a widescreen T.V.
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anamorphic

Post by disneyunlimited »

Well, I was going to use the word "squeezed", Joshua, but that would make it sound like we were losing resolution when the whole purpose of digital anamorphic widescreen is to increase horizontal resolution.

Notice I did include the words 'on DVD' as there are differences between how it's used in the home and the cinema.

In fact, widescreen TV is actually nearer to 1.77:1 so I should have said:

* "Anamorphic widescreen" on a DVD is a 16:9 (1.77:1) TV image stretched vertically to fill a 4:3 (1.33:1) TV screen. *

So getting back to the original topic...

DARBY O'GILL can be viewed in near enough the original aspect ratio (1.75:1) by putting your widescreen TV in 'Zoom' mode.

And as deathie mouse suggested, those of you who want to view it in widescreen on a 4:3 TV can stick strips of cardboard at the top and bottom of the screen!
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